It’s so much easier to separate art from artist when they have been dead for 200+ years and the mayhem they sowed is long gone. I didn’t know about some of these things and wow, what trash people.
Across the arts we are told to seperate the art from the artist. Good on you if you cannot. I can’t. I cannot bear the thought of watching a Woody Allen movie because instantly his behaviour towards a woman who was for all intents and purposes his step daughter would be forward in my mind. The same with Neil Gaiman being aware of the allegations means I have no desire to read any of his works ever again.
I always wondered why things between her and Archie Panjabi were so bad that they weren't in the same room at the same time for Kalinda's final scene and I guess now we know! Eugh.
Oh wow this is all news to me, and Tina Fey as well?!!! I’m really disappointed. And very willing to not enjoy anything either of them have made any more, even though I’ve hugely enjoyed it in the past. Thanks for this excellent, thoughtful piece.
Separating the art from the artist is what people say who are content to live with the cognitive dissonance of disliking someone’s actions while indulging in their content. Racists and homophobes and misogynists impact everything they touch. There is SO MUCH ART in the world. I will not waste a moment of my time consuming content from people who are a waste of oxygen. Ewwww
Thank you for this! When you wrote that separating the art from the artist only goes in one direction, I also thought about how we don’t often enough use this logic to find new art by artists who ARE good people. We so often start with the art, see if we like it, and judge the artist accordingly. What if we started with people who’ve shown themselves to be good and appreciate what they create?
I’m very disappointed hearing this about Juliana Margulies. Not that I was a huge fan but those are some ugly opinions in the 2020s. I give people a pass when they are from a different time. Like a 90 year old spewing crap vs a 30 year old. But if she doesn’t even have the good sense to keep her mouth shut, then she’s much dumber than I’ve given her credit.
I've always found it so odd to hold people with more life experience to lower standards than those they are failing to guide. A 30 year old has had far less time to reflect on why something isn't right. It's sheer laziness to opt out of growing as a person.
I guess my point is that the grumpy old man is less likely to know what’s going on in the world than a 30 year old. Either way I’ll call them out. But I also don’t hold what someone said as a teenager against them once they’re adults unless they haven’t grown since.
The Neil Gaiman of it all sucks because there aren’t many celebrity authors who speak out on behalf of libraries, even if his actions didn’t always support us. :/
I have only heard the broad brush strikes on this one, i.e., that he had been accused of sexual misconduct. I looked it up after I heard about it and the articles I read were completely vague. I've heard nothing more about it until I read this.
There was a really in depth article recently in Variety that chronicles everything and it’s far worse than I had thought. That plus his very flaccid response to all of this has been very deflating.
I just read some of a Variety article and I couldn't stomach reading the whole thing. I can't bring myself to read anything he's written or watch any of the movies or shows. Despite how well he writes I can't support him. Thankfully, Dark Horse Comics has dropped him and Prime has halted production on the final season of Good Omens. I imagine Netflix may pull the plug on Sandman.
Yeah, he apparently had a relationship with Epstein. When asked about the nature of his relationship to Epstein, he said, "None of your business" (or something like that).
Vulture had a very in depth article. It’s extremely disgusting & I couldn’t get it out of my head for a couple days. He’s a revolting person. Read at your own risk of being nauseous.
There is also a very well reported podcast about it called “Master” by Tortoise Media but it’s a tough listen so definitely a trigger warning to go with the recommendation.
In her book Monsters, A Fan’s Dilemma, Claire Dederer asks if we can continue to love the work, but dislike or even condemn the artist. Ultimately she concludes it is a matter of personal choice.
(The above paragraph is from a comment I made in NYTBR)
As we go further into this dystopian fascist period we may see many artists and celebrities fall by the wayside of our regard.
I think the show is still brilliant. But regardless, calling someone racist and transphobic because a couple isolated jokes don’t land the same way 20 years later seems extreme.
I agree, she’s obviously neither of those. And she IS brilliant. However, I read a quote from her years ago, agreeing with the old adage that you’re a democrat when you’re young, but grow up and become a republican. I was really shocked, & sad. I guess that’s why I started seeing 30 rock in with a different lense.
I agree. We have all learned a lot about how our words land since 2009. Tina Fey is Gen-X and so therefore grew up in a very different time where TV shows like MASH thought nothing of slut shaming Margaret Hulihan and laughing at Klinger's cross dressing. Mean Girls has its issues too, but again, consider the year it was released and the progress we have made since then...
I agree. We have all learned a lot about how our words land since 2009. Tina Fey is Gen-X and so therefore grew up in a very different time where TV shows like MASH thought nothing of slut shaming Margaret Hulihan and laughing at Klinger's cross dressing. Mean Girls has its issues too, but again, consider the year it was released and the progress we have made since then...
I think overall, your point is fine and I agree! It really freaking sucks. I just think you should consider why a woman with opinions you disagree with is on the same level as a violently abusive man.
I don’t agree with this woman. But I don’t think her “villain turn” is on the same level as domestic abuse.
The proverbial feet of clay is so defeating some times. Who you are as a person should matter. At the same time, society tries to dictate that we curate to one degree or another if we want to advance. Thank you for sharing.
I think the only time I really feel comfortable separating the art from the artist is with actors, honestly. They're taking others material and making it their own, rather than it being explicitly their work. Of course that's nuanced and actors can also direct and write and have influence over production but for the most part they're just there to play a role. I say all this also deeply disappointed in Julianna, as I LOVE her as Carol. But at least she can just stay as 'Carol' to me, rather than say Woody Allen, who's creation and creative liberties bleed into all his work AND he's the one who profits off it the most in recognition. We're praising his 'genius' rather than a role he is playing as part of a bigger picture. Does that make sense? Loved your post btw!
It’s so much easier to separate art from artist when they have been dead for 200+ years and the mayhem they sowed is long gone. I didn’t know about some of these things and wow, what trash people.
Across the arts we are told to seperate the art from the artist. Good on you if you cannot. I can’t. I cannot bear the thought of watching a Woody Allen movie because instantly his behaviour towards a woman who was for all intents and purposes his step daughter would be forward in my mind. The same with Neil Gaiman being aware of the allegations means I have no desire to read any of his works ever again.
The only normal person is the one you don’t know well enough yet
I always wondered why things between her and Archie Panjabi were so bad that they weren't in the same room at the same time for Kalinda's final scene and I guess now we know! Eugh.
this feud has driven me to absolute distraction for years! Archie has been so frustratingly classy and private about it!
Oh wow this is all news to me, and Tina Fey as well?!!! I’m really disappointed. And very willing to not enjoy anything either of them have made any more, even though I’ve hugely enjoyed it in the past. Thanks for this excellent, thoughtful piece.
I know! I read that and thought ‘not another one!’
Separating the art from the artist is what people say who are content to live with the cognitive dissonance of disliking someone’s actions while indulging in their content. Racists and homophobes and misogynists impact everything they touch. There is SO MUCH ART in the world. I will not waste a moment of my time consuming content from people who are a waste of oxygen. Ewwww
Thank you for this! When you wrote that separating the art from the artist only goes in one direction, I also thought about how we don’t often enough use this logic to find new art by artists who ARE good people. We so often start with the art, see if we like it, and judge the artist accordingly. What if we started with people who’ve shown themselves to be good and appreciate what they create?
I’m very disappointed hearing this about Juliana Margulies. Not that I was a huge fan but those are some ugly opinions in the 2020s. I give people a pass when they are from a different time. Like a 90 year old spewing crap vs a 30 year old. But if she doesn’t even have the good sense to keep her mouth shut, then she’s much dumber than I’ve given her credit.
I've always found it so odd to hold people with more life experience to lower standards than those they are failing to guide. A 30 year old has had far less time to reflect on why something isn't right. It's sheer laziness to opt out of growing as a person.
I guess my point is that the grumpy old man is less likely to know what’s going on in the world than a 30 year old. Either way I’ll call them out. But I also don’t hold what someone said as a teenager against them once they’re adults unless they haven’t grown since.
The Neil Gaiman of it all sucks because there aren’t many celebrity authors who speak out on behalf of libraries, even if his actions didn’t always support us. :/
That could be part of his penance: do *much much* more for libraries.
Ya. This one hurt me deeply. I have loved his books (and admired him) for a long time. I’m still parsing through it, to be honest.
I have only heard the broad brush strikes on this one, i.e., that he had been accused of sexual misconduct. I looked it up after I heard about it and the articles I read were completely vague. I've heard nothing more about it until I read this.
There was a really in depth article recently in Variety that chronicles everything and it’s far worse than I had thought. That plus his very flaccid response to all of this has been very deflating.
I just read some of a Variety article and I couldn't stomach reading the whole thing. I can't bring myself to read anything he's written or watch any of the movies or shows. Despite how well he writes I can't support him. Thankfully, Dark Horse Comics has dropped him and Prime has halted production on the final season of Good Omens. I imagine Netflix may pull the plug on Sandman.
David Tennant has said Good Omens 3 is being produced without Gaiman
Thank God❣️
Noam Chomsky's response to Epstein allegations might as well have been a confession. Ugh! Fuck off!
What?????
Yeah, he apparently had a relationship with Epstein. When asked about the nature of his relationship to Epstein, he said, "None of your business" (or something like that).
Vulture had a very in depth article. It’s extremely disgusting & I couldn’t get it out of my head for a couple days. He’s a revolting person. Read at your own risk of being nauseous.
There is also a very well reported podcast about it called “Master” by Tortoise Media but it’s a tough listen so definitely a trigger warning to go with the recommendation.
I read about that in the Variety article.
In her book Monsters, A Fan’s Dilemma, Claire Dederer asks if we can continue to love the work, but dislike or even condemn the artist. Ultimately she concludes it is a matter of personal choice.
(The above paragraph is from a comment I made in NYTBR)
As we go further into this dystopian fascist period we may see many artists and celebrities fall by the wayside of our regard.
Hang on, Tina Fey? I had not yet heard about that. They’re dropping like flies! Off I go down the rabbit hole of shattering another illusion 😭
Yeah, I loved her, too. But if you go back & watch 30 rock, it’s easy to see. It hasn’t aged well, to put it mildly.
I think the show is still brilliant. But regardless, calling someone racist and transphobic because a couple isolated jokes don’t land the same way 20 years later seems extreme.
I agree, she’s obviously neither of those. And she IS brilliant. However, I read a quote from her years ago, agreeing with the old adage that you’re a democrat when you’re young, but grow up and become a republican. I was really shocked, & sad. I guess that’s why I started seeing 30 rock in with a different lense.
I agree. We have all learned a lot about how our words land since 2009. Tina Fey is Gen-X and so therefore grew up in a very different time where TV shows like MASH thought nothing of slut shaming Margaret Hulihan and laughing at Klinger's cross dressing. Mean Girls has its issues too, but again, consider the year it was released and the progress we have made since then...
I agree. We have all learned a lot about how our words land since 2009. Tina Fey is Gen-X and so therefore grew up in a very different time where TV shows like MASH thought nothing of slut shaming Margaret Hulihan and laughing at Klinger's cross dressing. Mean Girls has its issues too, but again, consider the year it was released and the progress we have made since then...
I had a similar reaction to you. I really really loved her acting and it was super annoying to discover how yuck she is. Ah well...
For me, a guitar blues aficionado it was Eric Clapton. His racism and old cranky bigotry and xenophobia just got to me.
I think overall, your point is fine and I agree! It really freaking sucks. I just think you should consider why a woman with opinions you disagree with is on the same level as a violently abusive man.
I don’t agree with this woman. But I don’t think her “villain turn” is on the same level as domestic abuse.
She promotes genocide
Just like Hamas??🤣🤣🤣
The proverbial feet of clay is so defeating some times. Who you are as a person should matter. At the same time, society tries to dictate that we curate to one degree or another if we want to advance. Thank you for sharing.
I think the only time I really feel comfortable separating the art from the artist is with actors, honestly. They're taking others material and making it their own, rather than it being explicitly their work. Of course that's nuanced and actors can also direct and write and have influence over production but for the most part they're just there to play a role. I say all this also deeply disappointed in Julianna, as I LOVE her as Carol. But at least she can just stay as 'Carol' to me, rather than say Woody Allen, who's creation and creative liberties bleed into all his work AND he's the one who profits off it the most in recognition. We're praising his 'genius' rather than a role he is playing as part of a bigger picture. Does that make sense? Loved your post btw!